The Inner Experience of Mediumship — With Kerry McLeod & Phil Dykes

What is actually happening inside the medium?

When people talk about mediumship, the conversation often focuses on techniques.

How do you connect with the spirit world?

How do you receive information?

How do you know whether it's your imagination or genuine communication?

But what if the real development of mediumship has very little to do with techniques at all?

In this episode of Soul Sync, I sit down with internationally respected evidential mediums, tutors, and ministers Kerry McLeod and Phil Dykes, whose new documentary Evidence of the Afterlife has recently been released on Apple TV.

Together, we explore what they call the inner experience of mediumship — the emotional, psychological, and spiritual journey that every medium must navigate if they wish to develop beyond mechanics and techniques.

This conversation goes far beyond mediumship.

We explore self-doubt, trust, perfectionism, ego, personal development, fear of failure, learning from mistakes, and why so many developing mediums unknowingly block their own progress.

Kerry and Phil share decades of experience teaching mediums around the world and explain why mediumship is ultimately a journey of understanding yourself.

Whether you're a developing medium, an experienced practitioner, or simply interested in consciousness, personal growth, and the deeper questions of life, this conversation is filled with wisdom.

What you'll hear

• The story behind the documentary Evidence of the Afterlife
• Why mediumship is often misunderstood
• The three stages of mediumship development
• Trusting yourself versus trusting the spirit world
• Why so many mediums get stuck in their development
• Self-doubt, perfectionism, and fear of being wrong
• Learning from the word "No"
• Psychic ability versus mediumship
• Why personal development is essential for spiritual growth
• Consciousness, spirituality, and authentic living
• Practical insights for developing mediums

Who this episode is for

• Developing mediums
• Experienced mediums and tutors
• Students of spiritual development
• Those curious about life after death
• Anyone interested in personal growth and consciousness

Mentions & Ideas

• Evidence of the Afterlife documentary
• Evidential mediumship
• Consciousness
• Personal development
• Spiritual growth
• Trust and surrender
• Psychic development
• Self-awareness

Resources

Website:
https://www.philipdykesandkerrymcleod.com

Documentary:
https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/evidence-of-the-afterlife/umc.cmc.3z1aej1pjq88ylmmlv2gn9825

✨ Get in touch

If you have a story, experience, or idea you'd love to share on Soul Sync, I'd love to hear from you.

📩 Email: hello@jasonpaulmedium.com
🌐 Website: jasonpaulmedium.com

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Transcript

Introduction

Charlie Kelly Medium 0:10

Hello to you, my darling listener. It's me, Psychic Medium Jason Paul, and it's lovely to have you here in the SoulSync. So my guests today are internationally respected evidential mediums and shooters, Kerry McLeod and Phil Dykes, whose new documentary, Evidence of the Afterlife, has just recently been released on Apple TV. Now I was very excited because I've never done a freeway before. I say that three-person interview and having two guests on, and the energy in this particular conversation uh was just fascinating. I don't think we could have got more value for money, so to speak, in this conversation if we tried. So their um documentary, as I mentioned, Evidence of the Afterlife, follows their journey across the world as they explore grief, spirit communication, consciousness, and the enduring question that so many people continue to ask. Now, that question is does life continue after death? It was the very question that drew me into this world in the first place after being absolutely petrified of death, in some ways, looking at my life as kind of an egg timer and the sand coming down through that in terms of the years I had left, which I know is a very kind of somber way of looking at things at my mid-20s, but that's what kind of drew me into that. Now, one thing that really stood out to me was the deeper question underneath it all is what is actually happening inside of the medium when one develops their mediumship. Because I have many conversations with other mediums about um how healing mediumship is, the work that has to be done on oneself to properly be able to develop and become the clearest channel possible for the spirit world. Because when people often talk about mediumship, they focus on techniques. How do you connect to the spirit world? How do you receive information? How do you know whether it's your imagination or genuine communication? But what if the greatest challenge a medium faces has little to do with the techniques at all? What if the real development of mediumship happens within ourselves? In this episode, Kerry and Phil take us into what they call the inner experience of mediumship. Fascinating. Enjoy.

Kerry & Phil on Evidence of the Afterlife

SPEAKER_00 2:58

It's lovely to be here.

Charlie Kelly Medium 3:00

It's lovely to have you, and thank you for joining us, especially on Eurovision night. I'm excited. I'm excited. How will we do? Will we get any points? Well, hopefully we will. I hope so. I don't want us to come last. It's never used again. Again, I keep my fingers crossed. Firstly, I want to say congratulations on evidence of the afterlife that's just out recently on Apple TV. Tell us about that firstly, because to get something about mediumship out there so mainstream is an achievement to bring it to, you know, the masses, because I think the more people know that life after death exists, the more people can live their fullest potential. Tell us about that firstly.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

We've been asked to do a number of different TV series or episodes and films, and we'd always refuse them. But we know Robert Lyon and he said he would represent the spirit world in a way that represented how we see it, because we're sure that medium is off mediumship is often misunderstood because people only see the outside of it, and sometimes only the outside of it that is portrayed by those people calling themselves mediums, but maybe haven't fully understood the potential of what they can do. And so Robert said, Could he follow us for a period of time? We said yes, we didn't know that it would literally be two and a half years solid.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

24-7.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

24-7. It's a lot, isn't it?

Charlie Kelly Medium 4:43

It's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

So there's everything in there. There was no place for us to hide. There's honesty, there's humility, there's vulnerability, and of course, there's a spirit world as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

It was a place where Robert said, I wanted to tell a story. We don't just want mediums or more mediumship. I want to show the audience about grief and what people go through. And he said, obviously, the mediumship is there, but we also want it to be relatable to show what people go through when they're developing their mediumship. So he's caught those three avenues, those three storylines. And as much as we would like to say that everything was planned and it would go perfectly, myself and Kerry went through some real grief ourselves. I lost my father, Kerry lost him during the making of it. So you get to see the real episodes about grief and understanding about grief and how it touches and why mediumship is so important that we do it correctly. And there's a standard, there should be a standard there that actually is responsible, that has compassion, that has understanding and has ethics as well. So it all came together, maybe not in the way that we force saw it, but actually Robert had this intention of telling a story as truthful as possible. So he's caught the moments that he wanted, but he's also got the stories in as well that make a huge difference, that make it really relatable and personal.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

He's done an excellent job.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

He's done an excellent job, and I'm not surprised it's been picked up by Apple TV, YouTube, uh, and TuneFest.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

It's only in a film festival in Italy, a spiritual film festival, as uh one of the finalists this week.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

It is actually, it's been shown first, which is a big thing. We wanted to be there, but obviously, uh we had to come and do this with you, it was more important.

Charlie Kelly Medium 6:34

Well, the it went from you, I can imagine, thinking, okay, we'll have a camera for a few weeks, you know, it won't be too testing. We'll take it to some uh readings perhaps, and then it manifests into this, so it's um incredible. And I think that even my own journey into mediumship, even though my granddad was a medium, I it took me a long time to really believe in life after death myself because I'd seen mediums of not very good standards. I'd never actually seen my granddad demonstrate, and I feel that getting something out there that shows the story, the journey of how you know it's grief, it's development, and all these other strands, I think that's a really beautiful thing. So, you know, congratulations and you know, well done. So you've come on today, and I'm excited because we're gonna be doing a workshop style episode discussing the inner experience of mediumship. Introduce what we're gonna be doing today because I'm excited. Well, we're gonna actually be looking at what we have. I'm sitting here almost like a keen, you know, like I'm in school, I'm ready to go. I am the student sphere.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Well, I'm glad we were able to do this topic because we want to show and get people to understand what mediums go through. We also want to point out the understandings of mediumship and really

The Three Parts of Mediumship Development

SPEAKER_02 8:00

what happens within our mediumship development, because we feel it's a little bit misunderstood these days.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

In the past, Phil and I have been involved in counseling, experiencing, but also delivering counseling, psychotherapy, coaching, and that's our background as well as the corporate world. And so when we got together for mediumship, it seemed sensible, and the spirit world clearly wanted it to be this way for us to incorporate this personal development aspect, which people often talk about, but there aren't that many people you can go to who are mediums who actually deliver the personal development and emotional maturity aspect of mediumship. So we decided that we would always bring that aspect into our mediumship development because mediumship can be misunderstood. They people get caught up in the message or the emotions of it, or they always want the objective evidence, or they want to see the moment of recognition. But often mediums don't see what's happening inside of them until something gets stuck or they get locked or they hit a glass ceiling and things become somewhat stagnated, and that's where we like to help the medium move forward.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah, it's that inner process where that deeper understanding really begins, where we want to really understand and explain in this conversation about giving the techniques the reason why mediumship works and should be understood that it's not just formal training, it should be the theory of it, it should be reflection after the experience that brings all those elements together.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

What we're looking at is mediumship development comes in different sections. To tidy things up, we'll put them into three sections. There's a section where people go and get their formal training and mechanics, so the clairvoyance, working with the no, clairsentience, and all that beautiful stuff. Then there's the other part which is the practicing, very important. But then there's a third part that no class can help the medium, and it's a personal development, it's the understanding self, it's understanding what their inside emotions are helping them to perceive. And the hardest thing about mediumship, many people find is putting words to what they're feeling, and that's when people get a little bit stuck.

Charlie Kelly Medium 10:41

It's interesting because in my, you know, you're resonating with me a lot. I can understand firstly how all your different experience, the counselling, the corporate, all rolls into this. It makes total sense. And even myself doing recruitment for a day job and running a recruitment business, it all goes hand in hand. I was a psychic for years reading candidates, and I didn't even realise. And then one day I sat down thinking, right, I need to develop my psychic skills now. I need to develop those. And I think, oh, I don't know how to do it. Oh, it's not working. I think you'll be doing this all your life, you idiot. So I can understand that. And the inner world of the medium, it's an interesting place, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

It is, it is. It's not just about how we receive the information, it's the relationship we build with that inner world, that inner landscape where we find out the definitions, the meanings, the understanding. It's about information that is held within us already from the life experience that we've really had. And that information should be understood to that point of being able to express it, to make it relatable. Because we can all, as mediums, relate to getting information and passing it on, but it's how we understand it that makes it the content rational and logical, and actually inspires that person in front of you when they receive it, because you understand it with compassion and ethics. And because of

Trusting Yourself vs Trusting Spirit

SPEAKER_02 12:05

that relatable aspect, you're able to present it in such a way that it lands correctly to the recipient where they can turn around and go, really, that medium really saw me, understood me, and able to see the situations I was through, but also bring forward the essence of the communicator in such a way that they know their loved one is there, but also be able to express it as if it's coming from them as well, in the language that they would use and the way that they would see it. It's that inner world that really matters.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

And it matters because it's part of the communication. The medium isn't just the machine that passes on words, and we hear things like I'm just a telephone, I plug it in, you plug me in, and I tell you what the spirit world is telling me. Well, for some that might explain it perfectly, but for me that isn't it. There's so much more than that, and so the medium sh brings their awareness and their emotions, their trust, the pressures that life experiences into the process. So the quality of the medium's inner state will always affect the quality of the communication on behalf of the spirit world. But it doesn't mean the medium has to be perfect, they will have doubts. It just means that the medium has to build that trust in the partnership they have with themselves and the spirit world.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yeah, because it doesn't mean that they're always going to be certain of what they've got, but in that blend, they're hoping to become clearer in that trust that they have with the spirit world to what is happening within themselves. By being able to connect emotionally, physically, mentally, and understand it that way, it can change that understanding that takes the pressure away. How we listen and receive the spirit world can take away fear, how we interpret things, it takes away self-doubt, and it can make them really present in such a way with confidence, with clarity. And this is where many mediums today are looking for that help in understanding their ability, how they empathize, how they relate to, how they understand what the spirit world's been bringing to them through their inner responses. In other words, really getting to learn about self. As you said in recruitment, you're trusting your inner world, your feelings to how you feel about somebody. Well, it's the exact same thing with mediumship that we need to understand before we move forward, helping others.

Charlie Kelly Medium 14:48

Very interesting. When it on my journey with mediumship, where I feel I'm at at the moment, is I get evidence. Well, I've gone through a big stage of interpretation and not being able to not put things in my head, it's it's you know, undoing the habit of a lifetime, get a bit of evidence, thing straight up to the brain, and I've moved past that now. But there's so many stages to to one's mediumship, and the the further along this goes to me, the further along it feels like it firstly it's a journey of healing, and you go through so many stages. And I've got to the stage now where I trust the spirit world, it's myself I don't trust, not getting in the way of it, and it's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

What you're saying, if we had a quarter of a penny for every time somebody says, I trust the spirit world, it's myself I don't trust, then we would probably well into the pounds by now. And a lot of mediums begin more quietly than they expect. It begins with that subtle feeling, uh, a word, a sense of a personality, a memory, a physical awareness. But usually it begins with something small that's quite easy to understand. But as you've said there, as we move further down our awareness journey and our experience, the spirit world gives us things that are a little bit more complicated. We often say they give you a tiny little bit, but from that is a huge amount. And sometimes the medium is waiting on this huge big piece of evidence coming and hitting them in the face and telling them what it's all about.

Charlie Kelly Medium 16:34

Like a 10-ton lorry, that's what I need. And a profile proof. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

But actually, what they're what they're needing to be aware of is if you think about a newspaper with headlines on each page, you wouldn't just read the headlines, something that catches your eye. You would begin to explore that article, and that's the same as a spirit world. They give you something, and you have to follow the story and understand what that story is about.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

And it's often, as you've quite rightly said, Jason, it's a progress and a journey about learning about self, as the evidence often unfolds through the threads of life, not just through the whole story of what they're bringing, but it's how you

Why Mediums Get Stuck

SPEAKER_02 17:20

relate to it. So you are going to go through these journeys, as you've mentioned, about healing, learning about yourself and what meet and how mediumship is affecting you. Because mediumship does not always begin, as I've said before, with certainty. It begins with awareness. What's really happening here? What am I sensing? What am I feeling? These subtle feelings, often at times, very quiet, give us this impression that's quite ordinary, but it's how we relate to it, it's how we understand it. It's that journey within. What is it moving me to? What is it bringing up for me? What is it making me think of in that moment? Because we've got to live in that moment, that experience as it comes. And we can't dismiss these impressions because at times we often, as you said, go to your mind, say, that's too simple, that's too easy. It could never be that. We have to make it complicated, we have to make it clever instead of just really listening and being observant of our inner world, of the emotions, of the mental state, of the physical reactions that we have. Once we start to notice these subtle impressions and how they affect us, it can move us massively in our understanding. As you've said, you've learned to now go past the mind, and you've started to listen to the subconscious, how it's making you feel, where it's leading you to. And that is that journey. And we often describe it as reading a good book. Because in those good books, we have an understanding of the main character and the colleagues, and we have the environment, and we have the journey that go on and the aspects of life. Same with the spirit world, same with the communication. They're taking us through their story in their way, but instead of reading it, we're actually living it, we're being part of it, we're relating to it. And through that understanding, we're able to move forward in that inner environment that we're building. And this is why mediumship doesn't happen overnight. It takes time to develop because we are developing an inner environment of understanding, learning to understand how we're being moved. It's another form of language, but it's not a form that we're alien to because most of us have used it all our lives. When we originally meet somebody, do we not understand that we feel a certain way that we could, in very simple terms, either like somebody or dislike somebody? We listen to that inner world. And once we start to recognize what we've been given, it means that we're in tune with the spirit world, we're in tune with those thoughts. But going back to the book analogy, you get to see as well. Well, I know.

Charlie Kelly Medium 20:07

I like it. I like like I was saying before we hit the record button. I've never had two guests on before. I'm I'm uh I'm finding this podcast very easy. I'm sitting here loving it, taking notes. Carry on, please.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

What we find is some mediums are the ones who go to the end of the book and read the last chapter. And they're the mediums that get a little bit of information, a little bit of evidence, and then go to their heads and make up the whole story and give it. And actually, that's where they get the no, or I don't understand that, or you're just so close to it because they've had a snippet of it and they haven't stayed with a communicator long enough to download the rest of what the person wanted to give. Their mind has gone, yep, thank you very much. I can do it from here. And then they run 100 miles an hour and give what they think it is instead of staying in the power with the communicator and doing their best for them.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

But this is like the experience of living in the physical world. We're programmed

Discomfort, Control & Letting Go

SPEAKER_02 21:10

a certain way, we're told how to do things. We are able to succeed because we have things that can measure it. Well, mediumship's completely the opposite. We can't do what Kerry said. We can't go to the end of the book and think, yep, got the download now, fully understand what happens, because we haven't done that journey. We haven't walked in the footsteps of that person in the book. We don't know what they've done to arrive there. And this is the understanding we have with mediumship that we need to move forward in a way that connects enough that we get understanding of what we're moving through.

Charlie Kelly Medium 21:44

I feel that a lot of my problem has been trying and perfectionism. You know, in every any other area of my life, I will try, try, try, try, try. You know, I'm one of those types of people, I just don't stop. And then in mediumship. It's you know, I'm trying to learn not to do anything, and I just can't not want to interfere. But you mention about the self, and I feel we're getting lost a lot in techniques all the time. We need to be talking more about the self because at the end of the day, we're trying to be a telephone, aren't we? And if we're cluttered with all sorts of uh gubbings from our day, which is hard now because we live in that world, it is like that. But we need to be talking more about the self, most certainly.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Absolutely, because when we look at the self, how can we help somebody else or somebody else if we can't understand self? We need to really learn about mastering self, how we react emotionally, what causes to react certain ways? It's that awareness that gives us insight. It's what that awareness that gives us compassion and empathy for others because we've gone through a similar journey. And and to learn about self in mediumship, and let's be honest, a lot of people say, Yeah, I've done that, I understand it. Yeah, intellectually, but actually, have we matured with it to gain the understanding? And this is where we really need to take that shift into personal development because, as you mentioned, trying too hard, pushing, comparison, control, all those things take over because that's what we've been taught in life. We measure ourselves, we have a measuring stick. So we have to start to understand that this isn't something we can rush, this is something that takes time, and we need to understand how we react to things, how things sit with us. And once we start to discover that world of how we are, then we can start to understand other people.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

The thing is, we're all human beings, and most human beings will recognize this, but maybe not have thought about it in the same way. We don't like change, we don't like discomfort.

Charlie Kelly Medium 24:01

Oh no, we don't. No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

It scares a lot of us, and change creates discomfort, and most of us are adverse to discomfort, will do anything rather than feel discomfort. Mediumship requires for us to be right in the middle of that spot called discomfort.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

A vulnerable space.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Because when we're in that space, we we are where the communicator can take us. We hear some mediums saying, Well, I ask them what's your name, what's your occupation, and I I ask for some things and jewellery. And well, if I was in the spirit world and I was working through you to get to Phil, I'm a little bit stubborn, just a little bit. And if somebody starts just a little bit barking, barking instructions.

Charlie Kelly Medium 24:56

I'm gonna have to cancel you two in a minute. I've I've got I've been gonna enjoy this now. I'm gonna start giving scores.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Carry on to um then if somebody starts barking instructions to me that have nothing to do with what I actually want to talk about, it's gonna frustrate the heck out of me. I've got, I might have already pre-planned what I want to say to Phil, but to have to go through everything to make the medium feel safe and comfortable. Actually, it's a medium's job to make the sitter and the communicator feel comfortable. So it's our job to understand what it's like to be another. And for this to happen, we need to not know what's coming. So we can't predict what's going to happen next. Discomfort. We are stepping into the unknown, discomfort. We don't know the spirit world to actually turn up more discomfort. And you can see that from the beginning to the end of any communication, we're living in that place of discomfort, and so we have to get used to being uncomfortable so that we let go of the fear because it's the fear that makes us try to control, and the control is purely a mechanism and a symptom of feeling discomfort.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

And we have to understand something. When we're working for the spirit world, and let's say it's a private reading or let's say it's a demonstration, either one, does not matter. The spirit world has chosen how they're going to give the evidence because the spirit world, we've got to remember mediumship is a two-way conversation. Say they know what's in the medium's mind, they understand what experiences they have. So they know what they can do to influences in the right way to get their words out in the best way possible. But as you said before, Jason, we try hard, we push, we compare ourselves, we're trying and we judge the contact. Where really we should just surrender, we should follow what the spirit world's giving us. Because as I've already stated, they know what's in our mind, they know what life experience, we know they know what understanding we have. And once we start to take control of a contact by saying, as Kerry said, give me your name, give me your details, give me your inside leg measurement, give me your telephone, and all those wonderful things that we think is good evidence, but actually in this communication might be completely irrelevant because we don't know the need of the recipient. The spirit world does. So the best thing we can do is know that the spirit world knows what we've gone through, how we frame our words, how we talk, how we express, and we let go of the control and need to be perfect, as they say, whatever perfect is, because perfect mediumship, consistent mediumship,

The Spirit World's Role in Development

SPEAKER_02 28:00

isn't what evidence we bring through, it's by listening to the spirit world and bringing the words through. Because at the end of the day, a medium will never know what is good evidence, only the recipient will, by understanding that their loved one is there without any shadow of a doubt, in the way, whether it's the lovely little old granny that cooked, and let's be honest, everyone fears and dreads that contact. Well, I'm going to be really honest, I love it because if you follow what they want to say, that contact will be very individual and will be extraordinary with simple things such as how they turn the edges of their favourite apple pie up, which a lot of grandmothers made pies and things. However, if grandmother took a false teeth out and went around the side of the edges of the pie, then to me that is exquisite evidence that proves it's like, oh my god, I can't believe it's not.

Charlie Kelly Medium 28:55

So you're definitely trusting, because I'd probably think, oh, something's gone wrong here. I won't quite say that.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

But these this is what happens in some of the contacts that we do, that it's very individual, very objective. But if we control the contact, that wouldn't even we wouldn't allow it to come into our minds. Because what we have to understand, if we've got a measuring stick that's one to ten and we talk about our self-limiting beliefs, why we try hard, why we push, why we control. Let's say we don't like being wrong. Let's say we hate the word no. Let's talk about yes, yes, that's me.

Charlie Kelly Medium 29:29

You're describing me exactly valuing the opinions of others. Valuing opinions of others, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Especially that's also am I doing good enough? What will the recipient think? So already I've mentioned five things. We've narrowed that corridor from 10 down to five. So that corridor that we're being impressed through is becoming narrower and narrower and narrower. Because our own language is in there, correct? And this is where we go to the mind. So when you said you've gone past that, I'm so glad because that's one of the biggest stages a lot of developing mediums go through and they crucify themselves. We just need to understand it's part of understanding self, it's part of the learning journey of developing self because we all control, we all go through these moments. We need to really understand what is taking place and say, this is not failure, this is not a block. This is me learning to express myself and learning to be freer. But I've got to go through these three stages that are uncomfortable that we all try and avoid.

Charlie Kelly Medium 30:32

It almost makes me feel as you're talking there. But when I started doing mediumship initially, oh, it was effortless to me. It would just flow very, very, very, very easily because I wasn't trying. You know, I just sort of sit there and do a reader for, oh, you know, I got it right. And then came in the I want to develop it now. Now I'm trying to sort of develop my mediumship, and it's you know, stalled for absolutely ages. But it's when you're sitting there as a medium, and you know, this is my experience. You've got someone who's come to you because they've suffered a loss and they want, you know, to have that experience of meeting their loved one, you know, in or my development, you then sit there and you look at the act of what's being done, and there's so much going on. The person's come along, you're trying to help them, all these different factors. And like you say, you then get those different stages. The evidence comes through, and in earlier stages of my mediumship, they give me a bastard when I would say, I've seen a chair, you know, and still you're not giving the evidence, but you have to learn, and it's such a journey.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

It is, and it's different for everybody, however, it's kind of the same. It is the spirit world comes in and they share something with the medium, and it takes very little effort, just as you've described it there. But little do we know as the developing medium that it took probably 85% of the spirit world's effort and just 15% of us. So we just did our thing and it happened. And then once they've caught our attention, which is what that stage is for, then you say, okay, now you can see where your potential can go to. But wouldn't it be lovely if the partnership was 50-50? So they start pulling back to 80% then. So we have to cough up the rest of it. And then they pull back and we have to go more. But every time they pull back and we have to do more, it feels like we're back at the beginning, but we're not. We're having to learn a similar aspect, but at a deeper level, and this is where the spirit world will move in small stages. And even when you get to 50-50, we still don't know if we're there all the time because we have good days, we have bad days. If I'm having a day where I'm not feeling great, then I I'm asking my friends that side of life, I'm gonna need you to do a little bit more than your 50% today, just to make this work for you guys and for the people I'm working for today. And I think this people expect once you get to a comfortable stage that that's you done. But then what happens is the medium says, I'd like more definition, I'd like more specific details, I'd like to hear more, I'd like to see more. And the spirit world goes, Okay. And then that journey of, oh, I'm back at the beginning, nothing's working anymore. But all the spirit world is doing is giving us what we actually want, which is development. So sometimes we've got to be careful what we're asking for.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Correct, because we've got to talk about trust in mediumship. It's not blind trust, it's not just saying anything, it's not just hoping that something lands, it's not being veiled. Real vague, it's about real trust that works with the evidence. In other words, we stop controlling, we stop pushing, we stop having our own biases, we stop wanting what our own judgment of good evidence is. We start to trust with and work with real responsibility that we're following, that we're surrendering. If we look at what Kerry's just said there, we get to a certain stage, we feel happy and content with our mediumship, and we think, well, we could do with a little bit more here and a little bit more there, a little bit more depth, a little bit more clarity. Well, disparable, listen. And we start to understand

Self-Limiting Beliefs & Personal Growth

SPEAKER_02 34:45

the differences, important differences in our refinement and honing and understanding. So it's really about trust, isn't just dropping our standards, it's actually being more passionate about it, wanting to really understand the context of the evidence, wanting to stay present without forcing, without adding anything, without rushing, without filling silences. It means about staying present in that moment, as we spoke about earlier, feeling a little bit vulnerable, but being open to listen to that inner world. So for us, mediumship is not about becoming more dramatic, it's about becoming more accurate, it's about becoming more present, it's even about becoming more responsible in the understanding of what mediumship is, about what we give and the context of it and how it relates to the recipient and how it comes from the communicator and what they're exactly meaning. So it's about honoring the communicator. No longer is it about how good we are, what we can achieve. It's telling that story in the way that the spirit world wants without ego, it's serving that communication, whatever needs to be said in the way that it needs to be said, whatever we think about it.

Charlie Kelly Medium 36:08

I feel this is why it's such a journey of self over, like I said before, so over technique, because everything you're describing, it's self-self-self, it's all about the medium. And uh, you know, it's I think that's why it's such a journey and it never stops developing. You were making me laugh there as you were talking, Kerry, because it is carrot and stick, isn't it, with the spirit world? It feels like that, and they know what we like as humans. They know for the carrot and stick approach with me certainly works a lot. But one thing that blows me away all the time is the intelligence of the spirit world and how powerful our thoughts are. You know, I'm only really waking up to that myself in the last few years. That, you know, we thoughts are so powerful. Put the thoughts out to the spirit world. Instantly, there's always someone there, and they never fail us.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

It's one of those things, isn't it? I just I just jump in before Kerry does. If we we have we ask we we ask for something from the spirit world, then we complain about it because they actually do it. That's the intelligence we're working with, where we say, give us something stronger, give us more accurate, and we do, then we complain because we struggled with it. So we've got to look at what we're doing with the responsibility of it.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

When our mediumship is developing, it is putting every single frailty and vulnerability that we have about ourselves under the microscope so that it feels enormous. But what we've found is people come to us trying to fix their mediumship. What we walk them through is not about fixing self but understanding self. So the next part of the journey comes. Well, I'm going to observe myself in my mediumship, and then I'll be able to change it. Well, if we think about the mediumship, it is a tiny part of our life for most of us. Some of us are with the spirit world more often than others, but we're in our day-to-day lives a lot. So, how about we practice those things

Psychic Ability vs Mediumship

SPEAKER_00 38:20

that are getting in the way in the mediumship in our day-to-day lives? Because if we rush through a conversation and don't really listen, we're bound to be doing that in our conversations with people. If we feel intimidated when we have strong personalities about, or when we've got somebody very quiet that leaves lots of silences and we fill it with lots of talk, we're bound to be doing that in our day-to-day lives. So if we become aware of it day to day, then that's far easier to deal with a large part of life and then for those habits and behaviors to filter across into our mediumship than it is to try and focus on a small part of us and then expect us not to have to change day to day. It just doesn't seem to equate. So when we are working with people and we're coaching them, often they're very surprised that we're not focusing on the mediumship. We're focusing on, okay, so where does this turn up? In your family, with your friends, in your relationships, at work. And then once we get an idea of how it shows up, then we know, Phil and I, everything we need to know about what happens in their mediumship, because it's showing up big style everywhere else in their life.

Charlie Kelly Medium 39:44

This is just typical, though. It's it's almost like if you'd have told me at the beginning and sat me down and wanted to talk to me a lot about these other aspects, I'd be thinking like uh you know, horse out the paddock, right? That's it. Come on, where's the technique? I want to get on talking to the spirit worlds. But that's why it's the it's once I get to this point, I look back and I think ball in the china shop, as my man would say. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

It very much isn't as Carrie said, we develop, if we look at our personal lives, our our our everyday life, whatever shows there shows in the mediumship. Mediumship doesn't grow unless you grow. And if you grow, your mediumship grows. And as you start to see things in your mediumship, you reflect in what it means to you in your everyday life. One doesn't go without the other. The more understanding we have, the more understanding of the mediumship. So it's very central to your development. But unfortunately, today we see a lot of people wanting to understand the mechanics, look at the procedures, give me more classes, give me more training. Well, how about we take a moment to reflect on what you've just learned? What actually does it mean? And then we start to see past that carrot and stick, we start to really understand what the journey is of mediumship development. And the biggest part of it is learning about self, mastering self to gain understanding.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

When Phil and I we learned mediumship separately, we didn't even know each other at that point. We were both trained in the psychic for a long period of time before we were allowed anywhere near the spirit world. The mechanism for the psychic and the mediumship, as you know, are exactly the same. You get to know somebody, you understand what makes them tick, you understand how they respond when they're under pressure, how they respond when they are ecstatic, how they respond to family and friends or to work colleagues or their children or what shaped them in the past that determines how they are now. And in a psychic reading, that's all there for the picking. So when we flick the switch and let our students work then with the spirit world, it's exactly the same. Getting to know you. How are you when you're impatient? How are you around your family? What made you tick? What was your strategy in life? What kind of mindset did you have? It's exactly the same, but people want to connect with the spirit world. They want mediumship, but what they don't realize is that mediumship is part of the psychic faculty. So if somebody learns a psychic faculty, it stands to reason that once the spirit world begins to come close, they're using exactly the same skill set and it becomes a lot easier. They don't have to force it. It actually feels quite natural for them.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

And if you take what Kerry's just said there about that psychic faculty about learning how things are, learning to understand, and where Kerry said, we turn it around to the spirit world, we get to learn about them. Where evidence is central to the structure of mediumship, then you start to see the nuances, you start to see the subtleties,

Common Mistakes Developing Mediums Make

SPEAKER_02 43:00

you start to see the beauty of the story, you start to see far more evidence that's right in front of your nose instead of looking and judging and looking for what you think is good. So evidence moves mediumship in a way away from general statements. It gives you insight, it allows you to understand, it gives these recipients something that they recognize, and that evidence can be seen in the personality of the communication, in the characteristics, as Carrie pointed out. So evidence can be memory, evidence can be relationship, evidence can be habits, evidence can be the detail that seems to be little small things, but we know small things make huge things in the end. So it's understanding how we relate to that evidence, how it helps the recipient, and how we recognize that evidence that tells the story of the communicator's personality, character, understanding, general nature. So we need to really build a relationship with that understanding, which then takes you far away from the self-limiting beliefs, the things that get in the way, because you're engrossed in learning, seeing, understanding. And that's where the beauty of mediumship really comes together.

Charlie Kelly Medium 44:18

Self-limiting beliefs and the ego. My goodness, I tell my guys, shut up, will you sometimes get out the way? It's interesting what you say about the psychic, because it is exactly what people need to be doing at the very beginning, because of the fact that if you can't even become aware of your own energy and the person's energy in front of you, it's the very foundation. And that's what what mediumship is about. It's about these building blocks, isn't it? And when you're wanting to jump straight into the mediumship, it's almost like you need to sort of pull people back a bit and to sort of. But the spirit world are quite happy to engage, even when I did that though myself. They were very willing to throw the big carrot in front of me to say, yes, you can do this. But it's very interesting. Very interesting. So you teach a lot of people, I know you do, and tell me about some other things that you see that come up for people as well, because it is a difficult old path, but it's interesting because lots of us I noticed have similar things that pop up as well all the time.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Some of the things we find are, especially in the time of the pandemic, everybody was online and mediumship was far more accessible than ever before. There's a double-edged sword there for the spirit world and for the mediums. We found that the training that was being given wasn't always fully understood by the tutor, and so it was being diluted a little bit and not fully understood by the student before they were going out and working. So, in some ways, mediumship has got a greater platform than before, which is fantastic. But what we found is mediumship has kind of got itself a bad name because there's people out there calling themselves mediums that have had little or no training. Some are self-taught. And so they get a whole lot of information and they do their best to understand it either symbolically or they're interpreting, but they're arriving at the wrong place for the communicator and the recipient. And then the student gets really demoralized, they get a little bit bored, they get a little bit disheartened, and they throw it away and they give it up, which is such a shame because everybody has that potential there. And some we've come across have incredible potential. So with a little bit of care and attention.

Learning From the Word "No"

SPEAKER_00 47:00

And the thing is, people will come to us having learned some really bad habits, but it's the bad habits that have helped them get to where they are. But we've got to dismantle some of those bad habits to help the spirit world open their minds, open their hearts, open their belief that they can actually get more, open their understanding and belief that they can get those very specific details of oh, you name it in life. But in dismantling some of those bad habits, we can shoulder a heck of a lot of responsibility from you're breaking my mediumship to you're not the tutors for me. But the perseverance of these individuals now, now that we've got our hands on so many and we've been able to just tinker with the mediumship a little bit. We're a tune now. Fine-tune, yes, that's a better way of doing it. We're now managing to do what the Spirit World asked us to do way back in 2017, which was create mediums for the future and create good tutors for the future.

Charlie Kelly Medium 48:16

Oh, blindly, they asked a lot of you, didn't they?

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Oh, just a little bit. But it's not just us, everybody carries that responsibility. So we're doing our piece in there and it seems to be working. Um I'm extraordinarily privileged to be able to be in this place. It's not easy all the time, but loving it.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Absolutely. I I think one of the big things that we saw with people coming through and and do come to a lot, is when they say they're working with the spirit world, but it's quite obviously the psychic. They're talking about the recipient. You would understand this, you've gone through that, you're aware of this. And we pointed out, well, actually, all you're doing is talking about the recipient in front of you. That's what they've been taught. So we have to really get you to understand that it's about talking about that discarnate soul, talking about mother, how mother perceived life, how mother acted in life, how mother objected the objective evidence that confirms mother. But they go to this, well, what they're telling me is, well, they're not telling you anything. You're aware of your soul, you're aware of what you're feeling about the person. You're aware that mother's in the spirit world. Has that come from the spirit world, or has that come from the recipient's energy in front of you? So when we start to point these things out, obviously nobody likes to be told they've spent time doing things wrong. But once we start to educate them to the different, the simple difference of evidence of mediumship or psychicism, then they start to see the relevant points and then they start to make inroads. Another aspect that we see a lot is how people react to the no. We live in a physical world, exactly. We live in a physical Jason.

Charlie Kelly Medium 50:00

No, but reading again, that's how I react to it. Don't touch that, don't go there. I'm not doing it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Yes, correct. So we we have that relationship with no because we've been programmed by life. We've been told by parents, we've been told by tutors, we've been told by teachers, we've been told by peers.

Charlie Kelly Medium 50:17

Honestly, my mum says I've always had a problem with the word no, that's why I'll end it up in sales.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Okay, there you go. So you can see the relationship you've got with it, and it's one of the biggest things we see in mediumship. So when they get a no, they completely jump away or walk away from what they've said and start on something new. And we go, hold on a minute, let's go back to where you got that no, because no stands for something different in mediumship. It stands for new opportunity to learn something new. New opportunity, NO. Once they start to indulge and start to sense what they've actually got, they'll probably find that they've phrased it the wrong way, they've spoken it or presented it the wrong way, or they've got the wrong understanding

Why Mediumship Exists to Inspire the Living

SPEAKER_02 51:00

of it. And then all of a sudden, because every good medium wants to know, because we want to learn that a little bit more. Yes, I know it sounds contradictory, but we actually do because we learn something new from it and we get a new insight. So we've got to start to learn these new interactions, these new relationships with terminologies that have sent us running for the hills in the past. These are the things we came across a lot, and we still do today. Correcting them, educating people is something we're quite passionate about. We're never judgmental, we don't beat people with a stick, we just point these out in a gentle way and say, Have you thought about this? Have you looked at this? This is the reason why. And we can see the pennies drop, we can see the learning being taken on.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

The thing is, people then assume that psychic is the poor relation to mediumship. In fact, it's not. For all the readings that we do, probably two-thirds are psychic. People come to hear about their financial status or their work, or they're looking at going self-employed, or they're wondering about relationships or family. That's all about them, and therefore, we would work psychically for that. Not everybody actually wants an evidential mediumship reading. We've have we have more people come to us say, Yeah, yeah, I know my loved ones are there. What I want is a psychic reading because I'm in a bit of a quandary and I want to understand it a bit better. If they come in, fine and dandy.

Charlie Kelly Medium 52:37

Well, I thought it was just me that had that sort of ratio actually in terms of readings. I I'm very love heavy. I'm I feel I'm just a love doctor at the moment. I used to actually, years ago, when I was first wanted to get practice, I used to work on the psychic phone lines. And honestly, I joined it for mediumship in the very early days, and I never got one mediumship call. All I ever got was love calls. So there you go. But I feel you a lot of what you're saying is about taking the pressure off oneself, even about the nose, the way that we look at readings, you know, taking the pressure off by saying, I'm doing an experiment if that's what it needs to be to get the pressure off. But any of this pressure, it creates resistance, it creates friction. It's again back to that trying. And yeah, I like the way that you said there about just that rephrasing. It allows you to take a step back and you know, re-look at this piece of evidence. It's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

In mediumship development, there needs to be an aspect of maturity. We see a lot of people trying, a lot of people rushing, we see a lot of people, and this is unfortunate, wanting to gain recognition or to be seen. Actually, it's not about the medium, it's about the experience. And once we start to learn that once we're in that experience, we see so much, so

Consciousness, Spirituality & Who We Really Are

SPEAKER_02 54:00

many beautiful understandings, so many delicious, exquisite phrases and differences and perspectives of life that you're taking in and you're learning. The more that we have the time to do that, the better of service you are to the spirit world for a very simple reason. You're telling the story in the way that they want. So it's important that we understand the beliefs of mediumship, the understandings of mediumship. And one of the big aspects of either psychic awareness or mediumship awareness, whichever people are doing and practicing, is where they forget probably the biggest aspect, why it exists. And that is very simply to inspire the living. If we think about, as you said, it's a bit of a love fest at the moment, why our loved ones come forward, it's because they love us. They want the best for us, they want to inspire us to live the best life that we can. When we do a psychic reading, we're looking and we're investing and we're empowering that person in front of them. We're letting them see that we see them. We're letting them know that we hear them. We're letting them know that we're experiencing and we have the empathy and compassion to what they're feeling at this present time and what they're going through. So it's all about, in a way, letting the recipient be seen, not how good the medium is. And it's that understanding is where we start to see that real gift and that real beauty of inspiration changing and transforming people's lives.

Charlie Kelly Medium 55:37

Honestly, I could listen to you two talk about mediumship all day long.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

It's we could speak about it. I mean if we look at the the film and the book, we weren't we're not asking people to believe blindly because yes, the film and the book and what we do and what you do is about reconnecting people in this world with in the spirit world, but there's lots of people that don't actually want to be connected, but they're curious. So we're looking at inviting people to consider or to reflect or to experience and think about consciousness, which is a whole other session, I would imagine.

Charlie Kelly Medium 56:26

Oh, we could that's that's probably a that's three-hour uh probably more towards the length of your uh movie.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Yes. We've been inviting people to ask whether love continues and look into deeper aspects of who are we when we're not in the physical. We ask simple questions such as who are you when nobody's watching? It's a question that people find really difficult to answer. Because in this day and age, we've got social media, we've got television, we've got films, we've got numerous ways that we're in contact. So we're continually being fed an external validation. But if all that external validation was taken away, who are we? I was always told the spirit world recognizes us by our light, and our light is as bright or dim as our thoughts, actions, and deeds. So who we are, what we think, what we do, how we behave and interact with the world is what our light shows. It's not just becoming spiritual because you're a medium. I'm a firm believer that mediumship is one way that we express our spirituality. We don't suddenly become bright and sparkly and spiritual because we're doing mediumship. Really? No, correct, and then become dull and boring and bad when we stop. We should be consistently spiritual. And mediumship is a beautiful way of getting to know ourselves when nobody's watching and nobody's looking, so that we can own the brightness of our light so we can look at ourselves in the same way as the spirit world perceives us.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Yeah. Carrie's talked about those simple questions that we ask.

Final Reflections for Developing Mediums

SPEAKER_02 58:30

And another simple question is to people, why do you want to be a medium? And we take away a few answers to help heal people, to help take a way to fix or guide people.

SPEAKER_00 58:43

To help them group the grievan process.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Exactly. We take those answers away and say, Why do you want to be a medium? And then they have to really search inside what it is that they're wanting to do, what it is they think it's all about.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Because that what it's really about is the one thing that will keep them going when they want to throw the towel in.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Yep. Because if you think about those external validation that Kerry's mentioned and those those phrases we've taken away from people, when they fall and hurt themselves, what is it that's going to pick them up when they're in pain, when the mediumship's not working properly, or they're having a bad night? Certainly not going to be the external validation of helping people because I'm helping people, it's not going to work. It's not going to work.

Charlie Kelly Medium 59:31

Yeah, it's it were you making me um as you say that think about what would I have said my reason was. Mine was developing it, was I wanted proof of the spirit world, quite frankly. Mine was I wanted proof of evidence of the afterlife.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

So let me ask another question then.

SPEAKER_02 59:48

That was very similar to my answer, actually.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Now that you know and have evidence of the spirit the spirit world, what's your reason?

Charlie Kelly Medium 59:57

Because I I would say it's two parts. One, I feel it's my soul's calling to want to do it. And two is because I feel that I have a way of doing it that I'm depriving not only myself and other people and the world of it by not doing it. And I've had to ask myself that a lot over the years because I've said, well, why am I doing this? And I just keep going back to it because it's like, well, the more I feel I want to know, also the more I feel I don't know. And it keeps drawing me back because it's like the unknown. It's I've always been curious about the paranormal, even as a child, you know, ghosts and hunting for spirits, it was always drew me in, but it was one because I wanted that proof, and it was almost like we said earlier, you could have slapped me in the face of it, sign after sign after sign, and I wouldn't have but you know, oh no, that's not enough. Oh, it's a coincidence. Oh, it's another one of those coincidences. Oh, they do happen a lot, but it's interesting. It's been a blast with you two. So, in true soulsing honor, I'm gonna ask you each to leave us on a final thought today to close this beautiful conversation, which I'm eternally grateful for you both coming on and doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

It is to believe in self. Mediumship is something that requires for us to look inwardly. I've actually got something for two different groups of people. There's a group of people who are looking to develop or are mediums. To that group of people, it would be keep doing it, keep going. The spirit world need good mediums out doing it, and probably your really bad reading or evening is far better than you ever think. So keep on keeping on. And to the other group of people who are on the receiving end of readings, is don't put the medium on a pedestal. Don't put the medium high up as if they're a celebrity or there's something to be revered. Take everything, and as you've said, question it. Be cynical, question it, and if it fits, take it on board, but don't dismiss because you have an experience you can't explain. Be curious, continue to be curious, because the spirit world needs us

Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

to continually grow and expand. And I think the world's going through something at the moment that hopefully will end in something very spiritual and positive. So we need everybody focusing on exactly that positive and spiritual.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

And I'm gonna copy Kerry's style.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

No, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

I never can't, but I'll I'll do my own thing anyway. I always do. I'm gonna look at those people that are developing right now and those people that have developed those mediums. Start to take in and take stock and reflect on why you want to be a medium. Because at the end of the day, there's a few things I guarantee are about to happen. You're gonna get a no, you're gonna get things wrong. Some readings won't work, that is guaranteed. We can't be the medium for everybody. But if you know why you want to be a medium, then those experiences will be less toxic or negative for you because you'll understand your purpose within this world. And secondly, what I'm gonna say to everybody that's developing, whether it's spiritual or whether it's a mediumistic ability or some other kind of holistic therapy, is to make sure that you understand your value sets, why you do things, why it's important, but also how it resonates with you. Because if you have that understanding and that passion and that purpose, then you'll go far. You will thrive, you will succeed because you'll be an authentic to self. So take a moment, ladies and gentlemen, to reflect on everything that you do from a demonstration, a single contact, a private reading. Learn from it. What could I have done better? Be honest, without being tearing yourself apart. But then look at it and say to yourself, I was proud of that because I did my best in that moment. If you can have those reflections, I know you'll go far. Because you've got one thing at the center of your work that is truth, honesty, an authentic compassion for the spirit world and humanity.

Charlie Kelly Medium 1:04:38

Absolutely beautiful. Phil Kerry, thank you so much for coming on to the SoulSync. If you do want to and you should watch the documentary Evidence of the Afterlife, just go in the show notes. The links are all there. Thank you to you both so much for coming on. I've had such a wonderful time.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

So have we. Thank you very much for inviting us on. It's been a blast.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

It has been a blast, and you've made it so easy. It's fantastic. Thank you.

Charlie Kelly Medium 1:05:10

I absolutely loved Kerry and Phil and their documentary, Evidence of the Afterlife of Tap and Apple TV, was absolutely fantastic. If you do want to sign up now, I've started a started even a brand new monthly newsletter where I'm going to be releasing some meditations that are going to be free. You can also find out about uh what I'm up to every month with my mediumship development things that are on my mind. Sign up now. Just go to jasonpaulmedium.com down at the bottom of the homepage. Sign up there. And until next time, lots of love.