The Crossroads Facing Modern Spiritualism — With Jason Rothwell

What happens when a spiritual movement reaches a crossroads?

In this thought-provoking episode of Soul Sync, medium Jason Rothwell returns to the podcast for an open and honest conversation about the future of Spiritualism, the role of the Spiritualists' National Union (SNU), and some of the questions currently being asked by members, churches, mediums, and students across the movement.

This conversation explores leadership, governance, membership, transparency, the future of Spiritualist churches, the importance of healthy debate, and the challenges facing modern Spiritualism in an ever-changing world.

Jason shares his perspective on the upcoming SNU elections, the importance of engagement within the movement, and why he believes these discussions matter for future generations of Spiritualists.

As always on Soul Sync, this episode is not intended to tell you what to think or who to support. It is an opportunity to hear one perspective and to encourage thoughtful discussion around issues that many people within Spiritualism are already talking about.

A number of candidates standing in the upcoming SNU elections are discussed during this conversation, alongside wider issues affecting the movement. For full information on all candidates, election procedures, and official election information, listeners are encouraged to refer directly to the SNU's official election materials.

What you'll hear

• The current state of modern Spiritualism
• The role and purpose of the SNU
• Why governance and accountability matter
• The challenges facing Spiritualist churches today
• Membership, engagement, and the future of the movement
• The upcoming SNU elections and why they matter
• Leadership, transparency, and organisational change
• Arthur Findlay College and its place within Spiritualism
• Why respectful discussion is important for growth
• Jason's hopes for the future of Spiritualism

Who this episode is for

• Spiritualists and SNU members
• Students of mediumship and spiritual development
• Arthur Findlay College students and tutors
• Those interested in the future of Spiritualism
• Anyone curious about how spiritual organisations evolve and adapt

Mentions & Ideas

• Spiritualists' National Union (SNU)
• Spiritualist churches
• Arthur Findlay College
• Mediumship and spiritual development
• Governance and leadership
• Community, service, and the future of Spiritualism

Gentle Note

This episode discusses governance, leadership, and differing viewpoints within Spiritualism. The views expressed belong to the individuals participating in the conversation and are shared in the spirit of open discussion and respectful dialogue.

✨ Get in touch

If you have a story, experience, or idea you'd love to share on Soul Sync, I'd love to hear from you.

📩 Email: hello@jasonpaulmedium.com
🌐 Website: jasonpaulmedium.com

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Transcript

Charlie Kelly Medium 0:05

Hello to you, my lovely listener. It's me, Jason Paul. You're here in the SoulSync, and it's as lovely as it ever is to have you here with me. Now, over the last few months, I've become increasingly aware that many people within spiritualism are asking questions about the future of the movement, the role of the Spiritualist National Union, and the direction it may take in the years ahead. Now, spiritualism really matters to me. My granddad, who was a medium, that's where he did it, was in spiritualist church. He went to circles, he did demonstrations of mediumship, and he did that in churches all over the place in England. And he used to have people visit him from all over. So whether you're deeply involved in spiritualism, you might attend church regularly, study at the Arthur Finlay College, or simply have an interest in mediumship and spiritual development. These sorts of conversations which you're going to listen to today, I think ultimately matter because they shape the environment in which we all learn, serve, and grow. Spiritualism means a lot to a lot of different people, and even if you ask someone what does spiritualism mean to them, I'm sure the answer would vary massively. Now, my guest today is Medium Jason Rothwell. He's been on the podcast before. He regularly attends churches, uh during demonstrations of his mediumship. So this conversation is not intended to tell you what to think. It's not an endorsement of any individual organization or candidate. It is instead an opportunity to hear one perspective on some questions currently being discussed within spiritualism. As always, on SoulSync, my hope is that conversations like this encourage thoughtful discussion, respectful debate, and perhaps most importantly, a willingness to listen to one another. So wherever you stand on these issues, I invite you to listen with an open mind. This is my conversation with Jason Rothwell. Jason Rothwell, welcome to the Soul Sink. Hello, darling. How are you? I'm doing very well. It's lovely, my darling, to have you back on the SoulSink to Jason's double trouble. What could possibly happen on this conversation today? So I will say firstly that we've had two dress rehearsals over the period of a year because this second conversation, you've been on the soul sink before, I'm going to say, firstly, and you told a fascinating story about your mediumship, about your journey, which one thing that always sticks in my head is the missing person's work that you did, your involvement with the Nicola Bully case. You know, then I saw you on my TV one night, much to my shock on the BBC. And then that led to me then getting a number of missing person inquiries into the inbox, of which I've had a steady flow from of people looking for mediums. So it's lovely to have you back on. And the reason, you know, I'm going to say from the get-go, we have recorded two previous conversations over the last year, which I haven't released, is because the timing has never felt right on some of the matters we want to talk about today. And actually, I'm going to say from the beginning that I've not even felt comfortable to release the previous conversations, not because the material of which I didn't believe in and I've wanted to put it out, but it just didn't feel that the timing was right. But the timing is right right now, I feel. So, yes. So, we're going to be talking about the SNU today, which is the Spiritualist National Union. And you know, it's a topic which I haven't really spoken about in great detail. We want to talk about the SNU today because it's something that matters both to Jason and I. So, Jason, but to begin with, you are someone that is constantly out there at churches. What does the SNU mean to you? Tell us about your connection to it.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

I mean, it's a it's a big question. But what the SNU means to me, you know, I think it let me just say, a few years ago, I was accused of hating the SNU because I criticize it. And yet nothing could be further from the truth. The SNU, as in the body of churches that gathered together under that one banner, I think is one of the most precious things that we have in our country, like, you know, in our religion. And it's such a beautiful, wonderful thing that brings people together and has the potential to really, really, you know, drive drive the future. It has such great potential. And I only criticize it because I often ask myself, where is it going? And what does it want to do? Because it I I've said this many times, I think it's lost its way. But what it means to me is is everything. You know, not the union as such. Spirituality means everything, but the but I love the SNU. I think it has great potential. And I think over the course of it sort of 120-odd years, it has helped to hold spiritualism together. Does that answer that question? It does.

Charlie Kelly Medium 5:46

And it I feel that it personally, we're very lucky to have spiritualism in this country, and I'm reminded of that every time I have ever been on a course, which I'm very lucky to be able to have done and been on so many courses to develop my mediumship. Because, you know, if it was for me attending circle at the local spiritualist church, I think maybe I'd have done my first bit of platform potentially at the age of 50, at the amount I was turning up. So what I need is like a boot camp, so to speak. But it means a lot to a lot of people, and we're lucky in this country because so many people, it's put spiritualism and mediumship on the map, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

It absolutely has. I mean, and you're very right to point out how lucky we are, because if you were to look outside of Great Britain, you know, outside of England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, we don't really realise how lucky we are to have the spiritualist religion in this country. I mean, even just across the water in the Republic of Ireland, there's very, very sort of little in the way of spirit a spiritual community. There might be a growing sort of new age population, but there's not spiritualist churches. And many, like in America, certainly in Scandinavia and across Germany and France, etc., would kill to have what we have here in the form of so many churches that are open, you know. I mean, I would say you could literally go to a spiritualist church seven days a week if you wanted.

Charlie Kelly Medium 7:23

You could you could. As much as you can. And they're a beacon for when I go to spiritualist churches, and I love going to them. My connection to spiritualism was my, as I've said so many times on this podcast now, my granddad would often go around all the spiritualist churches as a medium in Southampton and Bournemouth and Tottenham Spiritualist Church. I know there's a lot of you listening to this podcast. Hello, Tottenham, we love you here. But you know, that to one side. He it was my nan would go there, and then it was almost my first real introduction into spiritualism and the churches was after his passing by going with my mum to one to try and get messages from him. So it was, and then you know, sooner or later I find myself then on the path of mediumship. And I always find that when I go into churches, it they are hosting people often, you know, at such a difficult, tricky time of of their life. And it's, you know, and they do so much good for the community as well. And you know, I think that's what we're lucky to have. And that to me is what you know the SNU is all about. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

I mean, you mentioned Totten won the election for church and or the vote for church of the year, was it a year and a half ago, alongside Liverpool Spiritualist Church, which is a church I serve. Liverpool Church doesn't just sort of support its own community, but it supports a women's refuge. It used to support a village in Africa, you know, they're they're fabulous things. And I think what many people don't realise, and I don't know why I should say this, but where Christian churches, which tend to only be open, you know, two days a week, maybe, struggle to get congregations of maybe 20. My local spiritualist church of Oldham has a regular attendance at least twice a week of nearly 50 or 60, you know, and there's so many people who've been through such difficult times, not just with grief, but you know, I've seen people go there to churches who are struggling to get out of addiction and they're just looking for some hope. They're looking for the idea that somebody up there is listening to them. And they are a wonderful thing. We really do take it for granted, actually. And I I was in a conversation with a minister one day, and I won't say who she was, apart from she was or she. And she said to me, You hate our religion, Jason. You do nothing but attack it constantly. And I said to her, You really misunderstand what I am trying to do in my criticism. And what is that? Well, the idea that, you know, it needs a better direction.

Charlie Kelly Medium 10:17

There's there's the idea that criticism You're expressing a view of passion and wanting to help and bettering. And shouldn't we be having that conversation?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Absolutely. You know, we should be reaching out to the community. I mean, it it's like one of the suggestions I made, and it's fabulous to see it come to life. The philosophy pamphlet that the SNU now releases, you know, I was I'd been whinging about that and banging that drum for months and months and months. Like, come on, guys, like let's actually tell people what we believe, rather than saying spiritualism doesn't absolutely anything, whatever you believe is right. And I and I can't I I like the idea, but you can't say you have a religion that has no opinions on anything. That's not a religion, you know? Yes. I mean, I I don't necessarily buy into the idea of using the word religion, but if it is a religion, as many people do, sort of, you know, bang bang that big drum, then it needs to have an opinion. It needs to know what it thinks about things. And more importantly, it needs to share that with people. I remember reading a pamphlet about one of the very few pamphlets in an SNU church discussing what happens when children die. And I genuinely was horrified. I sent it to a minister and was like, Do we really believe this? Because if we believe this, then I can't be part of this religion. And they were like, Oh no, it's just not been updated for 20 years. And it was like, Well, that stands true for everything. So I I just wanted us to be more outlooking, be more welcoming, put our views across better, have some sense of moral direction and courage, you know, speak about what we hold to be important. Our values and principles are so vital. But we won't even defend them within our own religion, which it makes it hard to go and then defend them outside.

Charlie Kelly Medium 12:17

Because the you know, there's going to be also people listening to this episode who are outside of the UK, outside of uh where the SNU churches are, but you know, touch that the world of spiritualism anyway, because they might be coming to courses, and you know, so it's connected, it's known, it's uh international, especially the college. So the SNU is obviously it has a president, and that you know is elected every two years, and that person is obviously elected and paid, and the rest of the organisation is made up of volunteers. Well, the majority, the majority, yeah, yes, the majority. There is people on the payroll. So there's many presidents, and you know, one of the most famous ones we all know about is Gordon Higginson. What he did for the SNU, he became president during a really difficult period for the SNU, and many credit him with stabilising and really strengthening the organization. And when I go into when I've been to the college on many occasions, the stories I hear about Gordon Higginson, even through Eileen Davis and what he did for the movement, is incredible. What does it mean to you know? I just wanted to touch on those points because we are going to come onto that later, but I wanted to touch on that just to let people know how it works. What does it mean to be a spiritualist, Jason? Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Ha! I would quote Emma Harding Britain and say, and I don't know understand if this actually answers your question. Emma Harding Britain said there are many spiritualists within spiritualism, not necessarily very much spiritual about spiritualists. I I think to be a spiritualist simply means to be a member of the spiritualist religion. That doesn't necessarily make you a spiritual person.

Charlie Kelly Medium 14:27

No, it doesn't, does it? Because I would say a spiritualist is someone that lives their life through love and kindness and compassion.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I would I I would hope that they're somebody who shows kindness and love and a peaceful, balanced view of the world. There, you know, there are so without going into politics, there is so many people who would call themselves spiritualists currently who bang the anti-immigration drum, which which is fine if you have an opinion on immigration. That's but but I would always say to people, the brotherhood of man is principle number two. And when you're saying deport the boat people, you're kind of not standing with that principle, you know, like you're sort of it's a brotherhood of the people who you like, not a brotherhood of all of us.

Charlie Kelly Medium 15:21

And yeah, so what you're saying there is you can preach to be a spiritualist, but if your actions don't necessarily align, you know, then sort of uh how authentic are you being, you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:35

It's like the personal responsibility, you know. With I know we'll get onto this later, but personal responsibility comes with accountability, and spiritualism seems to be lacking a sense of accountability recently. It seems to be lacking transparency, although it's everybody's favorite word, you know. I did find out something recently about from the spirit world, you know, transparency is a favorite word of many people until they are in power. And once they are in power, transparency is not their favorite word at all.

Charlie Kelly Medium 16:11

How often does a person who's being transparent need to say they're being transparent? It's a it's a it's a phrase used by someone that's normally got smoke and mirrors going on, isn't it? We're being transparent, yes, could how much light could shine through that pale glass? I want to ask myself, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

It's that thing in my mother used to say, if a phrase starts with the if a sentence starts with the word honest, it usually means what follows thereafter is a lie. You know, it's like when we say to each people with the greatest of respect, and it means, well, with no respect whatsoever, but I've said with the greatest of respect. So what is now about to be offensive, you're not supposed to take personally. But yeah, that I said I I think I'm of the same mind as you. What it means to be a spiritualist is to be a kind, decent, loving person who lives their life as close to what the spirit you know of truth and love would want us to do, whilst also accepting that we're human.

Charlie Kelly Medium 17:14

Isn't it funny how that one question, you know, if you were to stand outside, you know, your church, one of the churches that you go and serve, and ask each person on the way in what does it mean to be a spiritualist to them, how many different answers you're gonna get on that? You know, it's such but it's it's a very important question because surely if we are part of a spiritualist movement and we are calling ourselves spiritualists, then we should all understand what we are saying that we are. What does that word mean to us? Because it came up for me the other day, you know. I say I'm a spiritualist, psychic medium, is what I call myself. But then I started looking at that on my website, and I started looking and thinking, am I a spiritualist psychic medium? Am I just a psychic medium? I'm a spiritualist person, living a spiritualist the best life I can. You know, no one's perfect, and I'm far bloody from it, I'll tell you that.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

But I think it was it was somewhere at the back end of last year, maybe a bit further along, when I was speaking to a lovely friend who I'm sure I think you actually have her to talk to in a few weeks, which is Helen DeVita. Oh, I do. Yes, she's one of the most lovely people that I think I've come across. Which it, you know, sometimes negativity can bring positivity, and the negativity that's gone on over the past few years has had the positive effect of connecting me with some beautiful people. But I said to Helen, I'm not sure I can define myself as a spiritualist at the moment when what it seems to represent stands to me as nothing that I can get behind, you know.

Charlie Kelly Medium 18:55

Which brings us on to recent times, and I have been really in this world of spiritualism really now, for I'd say it's about five years. I was dabbling before then, but you know, it's I've really been absorbed in the organization, and you know, I remember let's we'll start back at five years. I remember the college being the first place I really ever walked into, and like so many people, it feels like coming home. The amount of times I've heard that over a dinner table or you know, with guests on this podcast. So it means you know, an absolute great deal. And then I remember there being all this drama that happened one day and a max exodus of people that I really liked as tutors and mediums and whatever. And it seems to me that there seems to be scandal after scandal after scandal in recent times, and I have to say, you know, I I and I have to address this. Jackie Wright was the first ever guest on the SoulSync podcast, and you know, and the Soul Sync has been the very unfolding of my journey. And the first ever course I went on was a Jackie Wright course, so I held her in such high regard. I had her on that, you know, like you do in in life when you're looking up at a teacher, we sort of put them on almost like the light was shining down, and I really, really liked her. And I have over a period of time, and it's and I haven't, you know, but bear in mind, I was absolute, you know, first guest on the podcast, really happy. And over time, I've heard and seen and I hadn't had first hand experience of dealing with the SNU to make a serious complaint of which it was treated uh with no accountability, it wasn't treated properly, and you know, we're gonna talk about recent times. So there's been a lot that's gone on there, and I have to say, from the very beginning, my opinion now is that I am so sad of where spiritualism is. I'm so sad at the state of the SNU and how I feel that we all come into this movement because we're trying to help people. We all it means so much to us, and to see it being, quite frankly, destroyed. And I'm not, and I'm gonna say from the get-go, I'm not someone who likes gossiping. If anything, I'm quite the opposite. I'll probably try and avoid it. And what I've heard has just really saddened me.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

I mean, I do love a good gossip. It's always I can imagine that I feel like I love a good gossip. I I try to say, you know, you shouldn't, because people who gossip rarely speak kindly. But I do like a good gossip. There has been obviously a lot going on over the past few years. I I remember that episode, I I found it fabulous. It that what you say there about that episode as well, it brings me to a really curious point that I was having with myself. Earlier in a sort of inner discussion. You know, one thing about our current president minister is that when she speaks truthfully, do I use that word? Or or from what appears to be the heart, she can't I I find myself struggling to disagree with her. You know, she speaks with such great passion about our religion.

Charlie Kelly Medium 22:28

And it was exactly that, which was what drew me in was that passion, the conviction of the spirit world. And I I that was the first experience I had was on a week course where it was that course of seeing what was being demonstrated, the mediumship and whatever, which brought me back into it again, and it was what ignited my mediumship. So that was my opinion. Really high esteem and regard. I would and would probably not hear a bad word. If someone said a bad word about her, I would probably think it was more on them.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Absolutely. I mean, and that is something that still is, I would argue, is a problem currently. There are still a lot of people who would who don't want to hear anything other than rapturous applause. And yet I would say to people, you know, open your eyes. This has reached a place recently where it can't move forward from without something seriously drastic taking place. And obviously, that could happen over the next few months as we enter the sort of election period.

Charlie Kelly Medium 23:40

Can I talk a bit about because there's been a lot of things that have gone on, and one of the problems I was even having before this conversation was there's there's so many examples of where I feel that there's governance issues. I feel that the SNU is being ran like a law to themselves with no accountability, nowhere near enough transparency. And I say that from my own first-hand experiences and from people that I really respect and trust, and from things I've seen and things I've heard on really good authority. So there's a number of things we could talk about, but can I, you know, I don't want to get into you know a big gossip meal here, but there's been some really serious allegations and things that have come up in recent times. So, you know, I just want to bring to where we are at the moment and then Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

The shooters thing obviously is the thing that everybody knows about. I would say just on a just going with what you just say there and with what I feel it's important to mention, you know, for those who will listen to this, it's important to acknowledge that not every problem within the SNU starts and ends at the door of its president minister. Like it's important to say that because I think some people have got into a situation recently where that particular person has become the wicked witch of the West, and she is the source of everybody's problems, and that is simply not true. And it and it it's it would be childish to suggest that it that that is the sole cause of all our issues. But it is equally childish and ignorant, and and I know those are two very strong words, but it is childish and ignorant to not acknowledge that some of these problems, specifically with the constant reference to lawsuits, you know, and non-disclosure agreements, that these do point to a personal failing in one particular individual's ability to actually fulfil their role, you know.

Charlie Kelly Medium 25:47

I think I think the problem is is you can, you know, when I when the uh when the tutors thing first happened, it was obviously I'd I'd it was quite early on into my sort of absorption into this sort of uh world, so to speak. And uh when it happened, I thought to myself, well, you know, maybe there's no smoke without fire, you know. And but the the the issue I I've had in uh you know personally with my views is it's you know maybe that's that that you know someone else, maybe that's someone else, maybe that, but there's the you know, when it gets to a certain point and it's you know allegations about misappropriation of what are charitable funds to make compensation agreements which have NDAs are NDAs assigned. Why would a non-disclosure agreement need to be signed if nothing, you know, what's the word I want to use carefully here, if nothing untoward happens. I work in a recruitment business for a day job where I advise lawyers every single day, and I'm very familiar with non-disclosure agreements and employment contracts. And, you know, I I that is being, you know, there's questions that need to be answered there. There's questions that need to be answered, especially when it's you know charitable money. And, you know, the problem is there seems to be a number of these types of allegations. But the the other issue is if you write to the SNU where you try and investigate this, they won't answer to these, you know, questions, which surely, if there's transparency and they're asking for donations and it's charity, surely there needs to be transparency if you're racking up legal fees and you know it's all resulting in one person, then what's going on there?

SPEAKER_00 27:27

We were told, were we not, that none none of this is true, none of this is happening.

Charlie Kelly Medium 27:33

Well, if it's not true, then publish the figures for compensation paid over the last time you can say compensation and you can say what category it fell under.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Well, it's like the conversation that occurred at the last AGM, and obviously a series of allegations were made. The person who the allegations were made against stood up and defended herself, and yet there was no need for her to defend herself. If there was nothing to defend, she could have just released the information and just said, There you go, this whole nonsense. But we haven't had that. When people stood up and tried to ask, you know, show us the CCTV footage, for example, show us the agreement, show us the payoff papers, they got shouted down and told that they were stirring up trouble. And the poor gentleman who did make that allegation has retracted it. I I question the how do I word this politely? I question the sincerity of that retraction. I I I wonder if it was meant to be. You know, it it's hard to see that he made those allegations without knowing the facts. And his sort of recanting of that allegation may not have been his own doing. But it just to sort of move it on slightly, you know. The the I don't know why I want to mention this, you know, but it keeps popping into my head.

Charlie Kelly Medium 29:11

Oh, Jason, if something pops into your head, you should know being a medium, Jason.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Just spit it out now. It's so ridiculous. I really want somebody to find the photograph taken the day before the tutors went on strike from the National Arboretum. And there's a there's a particular minister stood with a member of the NEC, and they're looking at the back of Libby Clark, I think it is. And I remember zooming in and I was like, something dodgy is going on there. Because you could see the daggers from these two people going into Libby's back, and it was like Well, you can feel energy from photos, can't you?

Charlie Kelly Medium 29:54

You know, there's an energy imprint there.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

There was the just this there was just huge daggers, and I remember saying to a friend of mine, I was like, I don't know what's going on there, but all is not well. And then the next day, lo and behold, but there's like there were it's not just the tutors, and it it's not just the And I will say on the tutors, just before we move on about that, I believe, I understand and know, and have spoken to tutors who are part of the dispute.

Charlie Kelly Medium 30:24

And I have to say, having spoken to them, I feel nothing but sadness for them. And, you know, I don't want to speak for for them. And obviously, uh there is ongoing civil cases there, so I'm sure they will be talking when the time is right. But all I will say is I was really sad when I heard what had happened.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yeah, I mean, they are like, you know, some of those people are internationally recognized names, they are loved and have massive followings, and and it is a it's a real blow to a spiritualism that those people are now not welcome because and and it is important to say that they are not welcome. Because without going into too much, they know that they are not welcome at the college anymore. They're not even supposed to go on the grounds, they're not supposed to go even into churches, which is ridiculous because you know, you how how you can stop anyone entering a church is bizarre. Although somebody will no doubt respond to that and say nobody has been, but we seem to be in a place now where if you say anything that is fact, people just say to you that you're lying. It's such a bizarre situation. But then with these legal cases, take the one this week, for example, and you know, legal cases do come up in.

Charlie Kelly Medium 31:39

Of course they do in any organization of a of a size the size of the SNU. But you know, I guess it's about the type of allegations, the type of lawsuits, what the what the payouts are. You know, if if you're an organization and you're constantly getting employment-related uh cases of unfair dismissal, isn't it? Yes, and and and but and and it's all pointing towards one particular person, then you know, that is something that you know is very telling, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Well, I mean, I remember years and years and years. I'm sure everybody's heard this sentence, you know, but if one person, if everybody has a problem with one person, it's likely that the one person is the problem. Did I say that quite the right way? I mean, I remember a lady actually up here, and she went from church to church to church to church, and she went from committee to committee to committee. And every time she left one church, she joined another church to get on the committee. And she says to me, Every church I've been to is full of ego, and all they do is chase me out. And I kind of was like, I know the churches that you're talking about, and I really beg the question if you're not the problem rather than everybody else. But like, yeah, the situation this week, just to highlight that, you know, we have a case of unfair dismissal, which was won by the claimant, given £11,000 in compensation, not including legal costs. And those legal costs, I dare say, will be considerable. And I I worked out the maths of this. It's about 240 independent members' membership fees just to cover her compensation. We don't have that many members, really. You know, I think we're on Well, no, we don't. It actually is.

Charlie Kelly Medium 33:33

Actually, really surprised how many members there were. I thought there would be loads more members than there actually are.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Well, I mean, I think we're on about two or three thousand as actual paid up members. And if you think 247 approximately membership fees to just pay that compensation bill, not to pay the legal fee, that's a huge chunk. Like that's a massive.

Charlie Kelly Medium 33:57

That's a massive, massive, massive chunk when you look at it like that, isn't it? And that's you know, and then I do and and you know, I understand why non-disclosure agreements are used, they're used for a range of different purposes, but it's it's a very it will easily anything but transparent documents. It's the furthest from a transparent document you can get. It's like a piece of paper that's made from slate.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Nothing to I mean, I was in the I think the thing is with non-disclosure agreements. I'm gonna say something now that I probably shouldn't say. And I think I've still got it somewhere. I I was invited to attend a working group. Just a quiet and unofficial gathering of various people from different districts who were brought together to discuss how we move the union forward, how we make it appeal to younger people, how we improve it for volunteers. I will say, from the discussions that were in it, it was useless and utterly pointless. And basically, the person who was chairing it came to give us his ideas, and we were supposed to basically rubber stamp them and say, yes, that's great. But we were asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement for just a simple talking spot, like, you know, it's just of no more importance than me and you talking now. It it's utterly ridiculous that somebody would send a non-disclosure agreement to say you can't talk about the topics that we are covering in this meeting, which was just essentially a random group of people chatting.

Charlie Kelly Medium 35:34

Well, I will say this, and I don't want to go off on a complete tangent about non-disclosure agreements, but I am very qualified to talk about them for a number for even more reasons. I was forced into signing one years ago in really dodgy circumstances when I was a police officer on the back of an employment matter I had when I sued the Met police. Obviously, not probably meant to be talking about this, but hey-ho. But that to one side, it led me on to do a lot of work looking into non-disclosure agreements. And the there's a lady called Zelda Perkins who was one of the PAs of Zelda Perkins, yeah. She was a PA to Harvey Weinstein at and she was one of two PAs, and I spoke to Zelda because she was made to sign an NDA, and it all blew up. She'd ended up being featured in the bloody movie as well. But she's done a lot of work campaigning and lobbying the government about the misuse of NDAs because NDAs are being used to high criminality, um, and that's that they're meant to be there to protect, uh they're not meant to be used in the way they're being used, and they're being used in so many atrocious ways to cover up criminality, to pay off victims who and that's obviously what's happened in cases like Harvey Weinstein. So there is a lot going on with non-disclosure agreements with the government being lobbied to make changes to how they're used.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Yeah. I mean, uh just go on. I was just gonna say, you know, there there are other things, and I would we can't we shouldn't go too far, but I I would encourage anybody who has listened this far into this podcast to just consider as they maybe go to vote in the upcoming election within our religion, how many people the tutors are 20 as a block, how many people since then have walked away from spiritualism because or SNU spiritualism because of things that have gone on? And and the churn of staff and the churn of people who just cannot seem to associate themselves now with the name. It's really sad. It is really, really sad. But I would just ask encourage people to sort of just take a step back. That there's loyalty is a beautiful thing and it should be commended, but blind loyalty is stupid.

Charlie Kelly Medium 38:02

Yes, yes, I agree with that, which brings us on, like you rightly said, to the subject of the elections, which are coming up very, very soon. And you know, if you're really involved in this movement, you're probably gonna have seen a lot of things flying around on Facebook of people who are coming up. So there's what we're gonna do now is we're just gonna talk through some of the nominees because there is a number of them, one of which, and we'll begin with the current president who is Jackie Wright, who is going for the third term now. I don't really personally have a lot to say other than what we've covered, which is the current situation of where the SNU is at. And, you know, I I would say that any of the nominees are very welcome to come onto the platform of the SolSync and say, you know, what what it is that they want to do, or you know, say whatever it is they want to say, you know, but what they stand for. So let's talk about the nominees because you have been keeping your finger to the pulse, so to speak, Jason, about who who's out there. So let's talk about you know some of the people who are, you know, really taking on the challenge, not just of you know, standing, but also, you know, running what is a very big organization.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Yeah, I mean, so obviously the first it is important to mention Jackie is standing for the third time. I'm gonna get shot by some people for saying this, but I feel it's really important to put it out there. And I mean, we've touched on it already. Nobody can say she hasn't done some good things. She has of course, you know. I think that's I just want to put that there because if Jackie does listen to this herself, you know, she'd be like, Jason does nothing but stir up trouble, I'm sure. But I do just want to say she has done some good things, and some churches have really benefited from new roofs and work done to them.

Charlie Kelly Medium 40:03

There there are questions as well. And she's really out and about. One observation I I really pick up, not that I would say I study these things overly, but she really seems to be about the churches, and she seems to be out there, you know, really getting her feet on the ground and meeting, you know, people at local churches, and that that is, you know, really important, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Yeah, and there are there is forget who it was who said it to me. Well, actually, I do know who it was, but I will I won't name them. Who said, you know, Jackie, credit to her. She's the first president in a long time, since, you know, just before sort of go back to about Judith Seaman sort of period, who actually bothered to come north of Derby or Derby, now you want to say it. And some some churches genuinely hadn't been visited by the president of the union for years and years and years, which I mean, David did, you know, go around, but David seemed to have a certain set of I I would almost call it a pilgrimage route, you know, from Arthur Finlay College round to a certain set of places and back. Like a battle bus, sort of on a national tour. Yeah, go into the safe constituencies and leaving in some ways the rest.

Charlie Kelly Medium 41:19

But you know what you need as the president, you really need uh to have some sort of camper van and then be able to do uh tours around all the churches.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Well, we could save money.

Charlie Kelly Medium 41:29

Very economical, wouldn't it? If you think about it really, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

But you know, credit to her, she has gone all over the country. Yes, indeed. She does that by herself, you know, it's not like she gets a chauffeur, she drives there herself. So you I think it's important to say that, but but nobody can argue, and it's very hard because you don't want to sound like you're being personal, and people don't like it to sound personal, but nobody can I don't think anybody can argue that there isn't some serious problems. And unfortunately, our president minister is at the heart of those problems, partly because she has she shoots from the hip. You know, I think I I just think sometimes she's she's she's like myself, maybe she speaks without thinking, and you sort of think you really shouldn't have said that. But because sometimes you then get yourself in a position, don't you, that you can't get out of.

Charlie Kelly Medium 42:31

But you've got to also look at the gravity of, you know, uh I run a I've obviously in my life started my business and grown it up to be what it is. At times it was bigger than what it is now, but a national company, and I've had to learn so many things the bloody hard way. I tell you, you know, to say I'm me personally, I'm someone who probably takes too many rolls of the dice. I've probably got a um cabinet of errors I've made from here in Bristol to Reading. But, you know, what I would say is the pr the person who's coming in to do that role is managing a very complex business. It's a multi-million pound organisation that's running budgets for a massive and it's a complex organisation with complex rules, complex rules regarding governance, also being a registered charity. So whoever comes in, yes, there is a team around them, and yes, there is uh people in place, but they are at the top of that organization, and no one's gonna get everything right. You know, what I feel that we're doing today is talking about talking from the heart and talking about an organization that means a lot to us both.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Absolutely. And and I just think people, anyone who listens, before I go on to the other sort of candidates, let me just say, you know, it as I said to this particular minister one day, it is not hating something that draws us to criticize it or to uh Critique it. It is loving something and wanting it to do well and saying this is it's like a marriage, isn't it? You know, I I I remember sitting down with two friends of mine and we're they were on a night out and I just said to Jack, for heaven's sake, open your eyes. Like, for heaven's sake, you are cocking this up. And he was like, How am I doing that? I'm like, he loves you, you love him. He is telling you he needs these things, and you're just saying you're gonna do it your way, like it or not, and you're ruining your marriage, and you need to really have a big long chat with yourself. And they they did sort of sit down and work it out. And I think that's what people forget. It's not, we're not attacking somebody, it's just saying this has the potential to be wonderful. Let us address where it's failing and turn it back to wonderful. A local church near me, back in the early 1920s, you know, used to have so many members that it funded ambulances in the local community. Now it can barely afford to open its own doors for itself. That is something we need to look at. And so I'm I'll go on to the other candidates because the other candidates are interesting. And bear in mind, these are only the candidates we know of who have announced themselves as being willing. And in the one of the problems we have with this situation, as we found out yesterday, is many of us don't know who is eligible. So we don't know who to vote for. And even those people who we do believe to be eligible might not be. And I draw you, I just draw your attention, obviously, to Simon James, lovely man, very inspiring speaker and philosopher, who won the election for vice president and then lost it within 24 hours because he had been allowed to run whilst not being eligible.

Charlie Kelly Medium 45:54

What a right old mess that was. And I love Simon. I I know Simon personally, I've been on his courses, and I was so delighted when I saw that he'd and that's that's no criticism, obviously, of the person who won the position by default. It's I know, but you get that sort of thing sorted out before the person even runs. It's an embarrass, it's an embarrassment, and it's an absolute, you know, shame for Simon. You don't you don't let something like as big as that, you know, that's that's a that's a blunder and a half isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 46:24

And it's a blunder of the second type because you know, many people who are in the union will have received their ballot papers, and on those ballot papers it will say Jackie Wright for president and Sean Taylor for vice president. And as we found out yesterday, Sean Taylor, lovely man, genuinely. I I've seen some of his sort of work and how he's tried to bring equality back into the union. He's tried to open up, obviously, going to London, gay pride. He is not eligible to be in the position. A position that he has now held for the better part of a year, but wasn't eligible to hold.

Charlie Kelly Medium 47:04

I think one thing's clear is there needs to be at some point some reform to the electoral system. I my personal view is, and then we will get on to the nominees, but you know, personally, in the future, spiritualism couldn't be more important right now for the world we're in, the climate we're in, people need the churches, they need the SNU. So this is absolutely so important. But I feel it should be ran by a body of people like a committee, because I think I I feel that that would offer the best path forward. However, you know, we are where we are.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Um Yeah, I mean, I did say in our in one of our warm-up exercises. I I would prefer the president to be nominated by the district councils, and they would pick a member of their own to hold the position for a year or or even just two years, like Jackie does, but from the people who are already, because we we generally that is a massive problem. We don't know who is eligible to stand. I wrote something on Facebook yesterday just saying before this election goes ahead, we need an absolutely cast-iron guarantee that everybody whose name goes forward is definitely able to stand and qualified. So we don't end up in a position where, like Simon, we have the very, very regrettable cock-up of saying. Well, you'd like to think off there would be lessons learnt from Simon. So Well, you would, but we clearly didn't, since yesterday, you know, we found out the exact same thing had happened. But the next candidate, apart from Jacket, is Pat Redman. Pat has served on the current NEC. She travelled to Australia, represents spiritualism to the churches that exist in that part of the world. And she is head of Manchester District Council. She's a lovely lady. From my personal experience, I would say from my personal experiences of her. She's always come across as particularly balanced when I have met her. However, and it's important to say there's a however many people argue, and I see their point, that Pat is part of the current NEC and therefore has condoned the actions that many of us are saying, you know, need to be resolved. And some people suggest maybe she wouldn't be enough of a change from the current regime because she has been part of it. It's a hard one. Yes, interesting. She has it. I would argue her C V is good in terms of you know her experience as she has travelled up and down the country as well. Somebody actually said the other day, have you travelled as much as Jackie Wright has? And I was like, She's travelled to the opposite side of the world. I I would suggest she has. But as we say, she how do I word that? To me personally, I've always found it very fair. And especially at our district AGMs, I think she's a very nice lady. But some people would argue she is too much of the same. And and mainly because she has been in the position since Jackie started the job, and therefore, you could argue has ink on her hands from the you know, half of the blood. I wouldn't I go with ink instead of blood because I think it sounds less dramatic. But but there is that suggestion. Lovely, lovely, lovely. The other candidate obviously is Julia Rolmond. Julia, how's it Julia has a huge amount of experience. I I suppose you could one criticism of Julia. I kind of think it's fair to start with a criticism, is that she has been in the background for quite a while. So she's like she's bit had personal issues that she's needed to step away from spiritualism for, as best as I am aware. So people might not know exactly who she is. It would be strange if you didn't, because she has been in spiritualism for years and years and years and years, and she has served under various presidents. She is a very well-respected member of our community and a healer. I kind of think it would be nice to see a healer elected as president.

Charlie Kelly Medium 51:33

Like do you know what? And I will say this healers are the absolute unsung heroes a lot of the time of spiritualist churches. They help people at some of the most difficult times of their life. And a lot of the time it's obviously the mediums that are in the spotlight doing the demonstrations or whatever. And healers do so much great work to transform people's lives. And that they are the unsung heroes a lot of the time. They're the backbone that holds up, you know, a lot of the churches.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Yeah, I mean, they're they're the ones who like turn up for healing services, get no reward, no expenses, really, and do an incredible amount of work week after week, softly soften, you know. And whereas mediums get lauded and trumpeted and get given their special table with their tea and biscuits, and people are like, Oh, how lovely to see you. And then you do the service and then they say bugger off. But you again in three months, Jason. So you're in three months. It would be nice. I think one I don't know why I want to say this, but it has been in my mind, and I think it's something to highlight, which is you know, a lot of this is Gordon's fault. Some people might not like to hear that, but a lot of the problems we have at the moment are Gordon's creation. Because he became such a central feature of the movement. You know, he was the movement. That he could do anything, say anything, go anywhere, nobody would sort of really say no to him. That he made the position of president become such a focal point where it had never been before. If you try to go, if you go and chat GPT, as we were talking about before.

Charlie Kelly Medium 53:15

Yeah, but the re the reason he'd got to that position was because he was doing such a great job.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Absolutely. No, like nobody can say Gordon didn't sort of save the union from disaster. He absolutely did.

Charlie Kelly Medium 53:28

But I'm saying his stardom was in some way, it was earned through transformation.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Absolutely. Like I I don't want to cra it's Gordon's one of those really weird characters where you sort of can't criticize him. You know, you but you can love the medium and you can love the medium and not necessarily like the man. And I know some people who knew Gordon personally would love him and also sort of be like, you know, obviously I've never met him.

Charlie Kelly Medium 53:59

Um, no, I would say that I have, you know, I've heard that he was a tough taskmaster, you know. And and his standards were high, and you know, I can imagine that you know he would have put you through your paces. Oh, but you would have known that's what you were signing up for. That's why you were there.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

I I have heard some stories, and I think, you know, thank God. Like I had like Maureen as my tutor because Maureen was just crazy and loop loopy, and you know, we did the sort of how we we plotted the beat, so to speak, and she gave me that education because I don't think I could have put up with the way people have told me Gordon educated them, because he was supposedly very, very harsh. But but my point is that he became such a center block that power and influence and focus moved to the position of president where it had never been quite like that before. And if, as I was gonna say, if you try and sort of type in on Chat GPT, the presidents of like this the union before Gordon, while somebody like Paul Gaunt would be able to, you know, recite it off and tell you wonderful things about them, it gets a bit hazy, you know. It's like there's me, this person here, and he kind of did that, and there's this person here who kind of did that. And people sort of seem to, I don't know why this has happened, but in between Gordon and David, there's a little bit of a like gaps. People seem to sort of have forgotten Judith Seaman and is it Duncan Gasloyne who was also sort of president? But but Gordon did created that, and I kind of think we need to say to people now, and I would hope you know, Julia or Pat might have this idea. I I'm not saying either of them do, but to sort of spread spread it out a bit, you know, give some influence and responsibility a bit further afield so that it's not all on you. But Julia is a popular choice, I would just say that, and and I will likely be backing Julia. I have encouraged people to vote for her because I I think she is what we need. I think we need a calm, reassuring, level-headed person who you know conducts themselves with dignity.

Charlie Kelly Medium 56:19

I think the SNU certainly needs a period of healing.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Yeah, I I really do, and I think she would be a good person for it. And in some ways, the fact that she has had to deal with personal issues herself, because we all know that she'll stepped away from the vice president role, which she actually won, but then decided to step away from for a brief period. I I think she has got clean enough hands. You know, that that's I think her hands are clean enough that we can. Although I will just say, and I mean this with great love.

Charlie Kelly Medium 56:53

Well, we just have had a pandemic, Jason. There's one thing we need by now and we should know about is clean hands, my dear.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Absolutely. But I would just what was I gonna say then? I would I can't remember, it must be a lie.

Charlie Kelly Medium 57:04

I'll put you off with my eyes crack, haven't I?

SPEAKER_00 57:06

It did, it did. I was going somewhere with it. It doesn't matter. The the vice presidential candidates are always interesting because you never know who. All the fo all the focus is always on the presidency, isn't it? It I I get that. But obviously in spiritualism, the vice president position is elected as well. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the president gets who they want as their vice president.

Charlie Kelly Medium 57:36

Interesting concept, but I, you know, I think that's you know, it's interesting, isn't it, the way it can work out? But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

No, no, I don't think it is. I mean, I did sort of uh I must admit when David Bruton stood to be vice president the time before the last time, and and I realized that there was a potential he was going to be Jackie's vice president, I did sort of have a bit of a moment whereas I this is a very bad plan. Like, this this is not going to work. Because I you would hope it's important they get along with each other. But the two candidates who have put their names forward is Matt Smith or Minister Matt Smith and Des Beaumont. Sean obviously was going to stand since his name is on the ballot, but anybody who has cast their vote for Sean should now know that their vote didn't count for anything because he's not actually allowed to be voted for, which is a shame, really. It's democracy denied, you know. Des is the president of Wakefield Spiritualist Church, and I think he's still president. He was last time I checked. And he is the president of the North Yorkshire District Council, if I'm not mistaken. He's a really, really nice man. He won an award for bravery after somebody came into his church and attacked the congregation, and he had to basically do battle with them. He has absolutely turned Wakefield Spiritualist Church completely around from a very, very difficult period and brought it to be a focal point of his sort of community. So, you know, points for that. And and he's very, very, very well respected across North Yorkshire and the church, and he keeps in proper regular contact with all of those churches that he looks after. He tried really, really hard when I think it was Brighouse Church was having a really difficult spell. I think I can say this, and I don't want to sound horrible or like I'm just muck raking by saying this, but whilst one there's a church in Yorkshire that was really, really struggling, and I know Des worked very hard to try and keep that particular church open, separate to Brighouse. But the committee who were trying to keep the church together did reach out to our current president minister with endless amounts of respect for her at the time, and basically found out that she wasn't interested. And I think they're still waiting on a reply to their emails even now, nearly like two years later, you know. And the church nearly closed. But genuinely, the the current president, and I don't want to sound awful when I say this, they had so much respect for her and reached out to her. And from the experience I was told basically it all sounded, yes, yes, we're going to do this, we'll sort it out, don't you worry. I'm right behind you. And it just fizzled into nothing. And and they the that committee actually walked away from their church and was like, do you know what? We're not basically doing this. And Des had to basically step in and try and form a new committee and try and keep the church open. I actually personally reached out to Des one day because some lady was complaining that the grass outside the church next to her house wasn't being cut. Why she reached out to me, I will never know. Because it was some church over in Rotherham or further afield than that. And I don't get why she messaged me. But I did ring Des and say, you know, this lady's having this problem with this lawnmower or lack of a lawnmower. Is there anything you can do? And he did actually go and sort that out. Like he and another district and another district president went and sorted that out. I think they actually paid for somebody to just mow the bloody lawn for it. But and that wasn't it, it wasn't even in Des district. Des was like, I'm not actually president of that district, but I'll go deal with it. So and he did. So I think that's you know, somebody who's gonna go do something like that, like it's I think that is a really good sign of somebody who understands what it's like to have boots on the ground and as Keir Starmer says, you know, skin in the game type of thing, and and he's interested in the the normal, ordinary person, and he's got a proper, nice uh touch about him. Matt Smith, Matt is a lovely man.

Charlie Kelly Medium 1:02:08

He's a chief man. I've met him, he did some um beautiful trance healing for me once when I was on a course and I met him and lovely, lovely, lovely human being.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

Absolutely, I mean, some of my students go to Matt and they bring nothing back but absolute, you know, raving how lovely he is. Makes me a little bit jealous if I'm honest with you. You know, they come to me and like, oh Jason, hi, um like what we're doing tonight, and then we're like, Matt's such a nice person. You're like, oh great. But he but he is. And I will say I voted for Matt the last time he stood for vice president. It was when Marie Lisman and David Bruton put their name for president, and I voted for Matt. And I only voted him for one reason and one reason only, and it wasn't that he was a lovely person, it was because he was the only candidate in that election, including the people standing for president and vice president, who mentioned God. He was the only one who mentioned spirituality in any way, and and I was like, I have to vote for that person because I am voting for uh for a spiritual leader, you know.

Charlie Kelly Medium 1:03:23

And well, I want a president that's going to serve spirits as much as they serve you know the churches and the members. Absolutely. Because I think we need to get back to remembering that you know spirit of the focus here sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:38

Yeah, I mean, like it's like this this uh it's kind of nice to bring it to map to map at the sort of this point because all of that waffle there, you know, about elections and presidents and personalities, etc. It it is sort of all part of human ego, isn't it? And this struggle for who's right, who's wrong.

Charlie Kelly Medium 1:03:58

But who is that, the top, the leader, the figureheads?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

Yes, but Matt is the Matt was the only one, and eventually I think Marie Leisman actually won the election. But Matt was the only one who said a single word in his thing about God or spirit. And I know we spoke before, if you just follow my Facebook, I bash the God drum a lot because I'm a big, I believe God is a really like the most important thing in our lives, and it needs to be back at the heart of spiritualism, which it seems to have been eroded from. So I would just say to like the candidates, and not that any of them are necessarily going to listen to this, but I personally want to know what people's spiritual beliefs are. You know, what do they represent spiritually? What do they believe in morally, ethically? Because just saying I believe in unity and transparency, it's just frankly is well.

Charlie Kelly Medium 1:04:55

I'd like to know, you know, what is one's vision? Yeah, what what what do you stand for?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

What are your values, you know? Well, in as I mean, I spoke to one of the candidates recently about this, and I did just sort of say, I want to know, not just like bring unity, bring reflection, bring some more honesty. I want to know where it's going. Like, no disrespect to Jacket. You know, I the last election, I'm going to fix the complaints procedure. And I'm 90% certain the person who said they were going to fix it was also the person who broke it. You know, some people may disagree, but I'm sure Keith, is it Keith Charles who was the previous head of the I'm sure he would sort of have a few things to say on who broke the system But I I just I don't I actually I think a few people probably if I watch Jackie's stuff and I do look at her things because I don't disagree with a lot of the stuff she says, which it might be surprising to even Jackie herself. I actually Agree with her on a lot. I would like to know where this is going because I don't think it's going anywhere.

Charlie Kelly Medium 1:06:07

It's been great to kind of go through all of the candidates, you know, understand, you know, just talk about it. It means a lot to people, and I think it's very good to have these conversations. So on that note, you know, I really thank you for coming onto the SoulSync.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

It's a different episode. I appreciate it, but we're in different times, aren't we? And we are indeed. Hopefully, we haven't killed anybody off with talking politics. Because I think one thing we're all sick of doing is talking politics everywhere in life.

Charlie Kelly Medium 1:06:36

We are, and we, you know, we normally have a policy on this very podcast that we don't talk about that kind of thing. Yeah. But, you know, spiritualism is what means a lot to a lot of people. And you know, I think it's good to have a conversation about it because you know I know it means a lot to me, that's for sure. So, Jason, thank you for coming onto the SoulSync. You're very welcome. Thank you for having me, and God bless you.